It’s been nine years since #OscarsSoWhite called out a lack of diversity at the Oscars. Has anything changed? Prof. Naila Keleta-Mae and actress Mariah Inger unpack the progress in the entertainment industry.
On Sunday, nine years after #OscarsSoWhite, millions of us tuned in to the 96th annual Academy Awards — some to simply take in the spectacle. And some to see how much had changed.
The hashtag #OscarsSoWhite started after many people noticed that, for a second year in a row, all nominees for four of five major categories were white. The movement called on Hollywood to do better: to better reflect America’s demographic realities and also to expand its depiction of our histories.
The reason: representation in Hollywood matters. What gets put on screens and by whom has reverberating impacts on how all of us see each other and see ourselves.
So .... how did the Oscars do this year? And how is the entertainment industry in general faring when it comes to diversity and inclusion?
It's a mixed bag. Despite some recent wins, a report from Telefilm Canada revealed that Black women have the least representation in TV and film. They also lead the fewest projects and receive the least funding overall.
In today's episode, Vinita breaks down the progress made and the challenges still present especially for women of colour. She is joined by Naila Keleta-Mae, the Canada Research Chair in Race, Gender and Performance and associate professor of communication arts at the University of Waterloo and Mariah Inger, an actor and director and chair of ACTRA National’s Diversity, Equity, Inclusion & Belonging Committee.
THIS IS AN UNEDITED, UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT
PULL QUOTE
Naila Keleta-Mae: We need more voices at the table while also realizing that we haven't been waiting to get invited to the table that we have been making the work while we insist on eating at the table. We will also simultaneously continue to nourish and feast what we've been doing because we haven't been waiting outside the back door for scrap. Let's just be very clear.
INTRO
Vinita Srivastava: On Sunday, millions of us tuned into the 96th Annual Academy Awards. It's been nine years since activists circulated the hashtag #OscarsSoWhite, calling on Hollywood to do better, to catch up to America's demographic realities, and to expand its depiction of our histories. And it's been four years since the murder of George Floyd sparked its urgent call for more equal representation in all industries.
Representation in Hollywood matters. It has reverberating impact on how all of us see each other and see ourselves. But has anything changed in the almost decade since the Oscars So White campaign challenged the Academy to do better? Let's take a brief look at the evening, which started with anti war protests outside the theater that delayed the broadcast by a full five minutes.
This year there were only seven racialized actors up for nominations, but there were some amazing wins in that arena too. Cord Jefferson accepted his award for best adapted screenplay for American fiction. But when he was up there at the podium, he talked about how many people passed over the project, a Black film with a primarily Black cast.
Clip of Cord Jefferson: It's a plea to acknowledge and recognize that there are So many people out there who want the opportunity that I was given.
Vinita Srivastava: Lily Gladstone was the first North American Indigenous woman to be nominated for Best Actress in the Oscars 96 year history. And Da’Vine Joy Randolph won Best Supporting Actress for her role in The Holdovers.
Clip of Da’Vine Joy Randolph: For so long I've always wanted different. And now I realize I just need to be myself. And I thank you.
Vinita Srivastava: But wins like these Just a few months ago, Taraji P. Henson, an accomplished black actress and previous Oscar nominee, broke down in an interview with Gayle King. She explained that she was tired of breaking glass ceilings while continuing to be underpaid.
Clip of Taraji P. Henson: I'm just tired of working so hard, being gracious at what I do. Getting paid a fraction of the cost. I'm tired of hearing my sister say the same thing over and over.
Vinita Srivastava: Taraji went on to explain that in the curious case of Benjamin Button, she was paid significantly less than her co stars, despite having third billing.
And for the color purple, Taraji nearly turned it down for similar reasons. The pay disparity for Black and Indigenous women in comparison to white women in Hollywood here in Canada, the problem is just as pervasive. Although there have been some amazing wins lately, a recent report from Telefilm Canada revealed that Black women have had the least representation in TV and film.
They also leave the fewest projects and receive the least overall funding. Here to shed light on the issue, Our two women well versed on the challenges of Black, Indigenous, and other women of colour in film and TV. Naila Keleta-Mae is the Canada Research Chair in Race, Gender, and Performance, and Associate Professor of Communication of Arts at the University of Waterloo.
Naila is also a playwright, a poet, and a singer. Mariah Inger is also here with us. Mariah is an actor and director and also the chair of ACTRA's National Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging Board. Welcome, both of you.
INTERVIEW
Vinita Srivastava: I mentioned a few things that happened at this year's Oscars. Mariah, maybe I can start with you as an actor and as a director. What stood out for you?
Mariah Inger: Many things, you know. I, I actually went back into history and just wanted to see who had been nominated and who had won the previous years. Because I feel like In the last six or seven years or so, I have literally been able to watch the Oscars and go, Oh, this is the Black year.
This is the Asian year. The tokenism is quite real. At the same time, I'm not, I'm not mad at the academies or the people who are being nominated. Everybody deserves their place. I was super happy to see Da'Vine win. I was super happy to see some of the other people of color, you know, be nominated even. It's a huge success, but the lack of consistent representation is, is glaring.
Like it just is, and it's not to negate or to take away from all of the beautiful successes and the people who are nominated. There's still a lack in numbers and consistency and representation period.
Naila Keleta-Mae: Mariah, absolutely. You know, to all that you have shared, there's some research that has shown that the directors of the top 100 movies in 2023, that only 12 percent of them were women and only 30 of the top 100 films in that year had women in leading or co leading roles.
And that that's the same ratio as 2010. We're still working with those numbers. In many ways, it feels like a shell game. And that we are working in an environment, a context that is deeply male centered, that is deeply patriarchal, and so that is reflected in all aspects of our lives. And no industry or working area really is immune from that.
So we have to think about progress in terms of what we can measure, where there are clear targets and numbers that have to be hit. And we know that when we are talking about change, what we're really talking about is the allocation of resources. So let's talk about budgets. That's where institutions, organizations, companies, that's where they really articulate their values.
And we know that behind the scenes, we don't have as many women in positions of power either. And so while it's wonderful to be in forward, front facing aspects of these industries, it's you know, on the technical side, on the production side, the administrative side, like where are, where are we there? And where are we in the rooms when the budgets are being allocated and crafted and budget lines are being created?
Vinita Srivastava: I mean your question about are we in the room, like are you in the room when these decisions are being made? Like we've seen a ramp up of diversity, you know, DEI initiatives put in place by these studios across North America. So if we have these measures put in place, um, has that made a difference? You say it's a shell game.
Naila Keleta-Mae: When I think about the shell game, I think about the long play. I think about, you know, you used George Floyd as a touchstone to a kind of global reckoning, thinking, marching in the streets around. anti-Blackness. Well, I would say that the murder of Amadou Diallo, who was shot at 41 times in 1999, was a touchpoint. The beating of Rodney King was a touchpoint.
Vinita Srivastava: When you say Rodney King, right, you're talking about early 90s. Then you talk about Amadou, you're talking about 99. You're talking about two sides of the country, right? Los Angeles for Rodney King, and then New York City. These are huge movements that happened.
It's a continuum that we're talking about. This is an ongoing representation question. So I, I hear what you're saying. I guess what I'm asking is, has there been a noticeable change in the last decade?
Mariah Inger: You know, if we're talking specifically about the industry itself, And the actual, you know, I'm not going to even say about the Oscar representation, because at the end of the day, the Oscar representation is an elite representation.
And it is a very, it's a very small scope of the industry as a whole. Although it's a cumulative and it's beautiful and everybody wishes, and that's the dream. That's not actually the business, you know, that is the one percenters of the business. In a complete format, you know how I can honestly say that my practices and the work that I've been doing for decades has changed.
There is a new conversation. There is a reality that now I can walk into the room and say your DEIB standards are below. I can, I can say those things. As a performer, you know, 30 years ago, I was told to be grateful to even be working. And I spent, you know, many, many, many years Being, thank you for the piece of crap, you know, thank you for the, you know, for barely acknowledging me.
Thank you for making me the token. Thank you for, you know, just allowing me to be part of the industry. And I truly believed it. I truly thought I should be grateful because look at all my girlfriends and all my guy friends who aren't working. So I am blessed. And in the last 10 years, I have started to see a shift.
Really just because of karma, because of people being, you know, kind of pushed and, and Forced to see, you know, and like the conversations have changed. So I am seeing my, you know, lack of a better word, white allies having the conversations with themselves and trying to figure out a better practice. I am seeing the panels and the discussions being put out there.
I am seeing the Viola Davis’ of the world going publicly and saying, hey, you know, you consider me a queen in this craft and I am still less paid than all of my counterparts. But we weren't allowed to have these conversations 15 years ago. We were even having them against each other. Because we were fighting for the small little crumb in the very, very large pie that didn't allow us to have a space.
So, we were trained to fight against each other even. Because there's only one crumb available. We've had to change even our own behaviors within our own communities to say, hey, I'm going to support you babe.
Vinita Srivastava: I believe that's what you're talking about, Naila, like who's trying to get funded, right?
Naila Keleta-Mae: Absolutely, and I think for me,, we can talk about Issa Rae's project Insecure, right? Insecure had five seasons and I think like 44 episodes. Um, every season was in the 90s on Rotten Tomatoes and was nominated for awards like, uh, the Golden Globes. And the Emmys as well. Um, you know, she won awards like the American Film Institute award for a top 10 TV program of the year.
And then also won the black reel award for outstanding comedy series. So she had like this range NAACP awards, everything, everything. Issa Rae owns 0 percent of Insecure. None of it, right? So what does it mean to have an award winning show if you don't own any of the rights at the end? And how come we can't have both?
Um, you know, she's an executive producer on the work. She's a writer, uh, one of the founding creators and to not own it. And then we can think of Michaela Coel, um, and her series that she became famous for, which was chewing gum. And so now she's negotiating her first deal on her own, her first series that she wants to do.
And she's in negotiations with Netflix and asked for 5%. And they say, no, absolutely not. And the way they said it was that that's just the way it is. Nobody gets anything. Um, that's just doesn't happen in this industry. And so she pushed back and they negotiated her all the way down to like 0. 5 percent and, you know, congratulated her for being so, um, for doing such a good job.
And she said for her, that was when she realized for herself that it wasn't that she was crazy in asking for percentages because, you know, they presented it as just so abnormal, but that in fact, it was the industry that was crazy for not giving her rights as like the baseline that all creators should have rights to their work.
And she did ended up not doing it with, um, Netflix after all. And I think went to HBO and did a collaboration with them her next work. So it's you know, I think that it's back to power, rights, ownership, being able to get work produced and being able to see women in all aspects of all of that work.
Vinita Srivastava: Yeah, it feels so devastating to hear that story about a lack of ownership, but at the same time, it sounds like what you're saying is that that's across the board normal for artists.
Is that some of the things that you've been encountering yourself?
Mariah Inger: Oh yeah, yeah, that, that, that is the reality. I remember back in the, what was it, in the 90s when the Friends cast, you know, went public and asked for, I don't know, something crazy like a million dollars an episode or something like that. I mean, this is an all white privileged cast, right?
And the biggest. hit show still to this day, right? You know, and everybody went public and was like, they're so greedy and da, da, da. And what nobody understood, if a, if a cast member, the lead cast members, the ones who are literally that you were making the show of, I think it happened to Raymond too, right?
And like show is literally based on his comedy act and all this stuff. We're asking for those kinds of dollars. It means producing, right? It means the production. It means the network. It means the studio are making 300 million an episode on your, on your show, on your idea, on your script, on your concept, on your face, right?
The unbalance of money share in this industry is insane. And we have finally begun to try and take that apart to create more collaborations, to create a different voice within this industry. We all know it should be better.
Vinita Srivastava: You're saying like, this is the same across the board, this is just the way it is.
Based on, you know, your research and your work, Naila, there's been such a mistreatment of Black women, and there's been so much stereotyping of Black women in Hollywood. Then there's this idea of being, as you say in your book, like, and this idea of how people see you or how you're being read and how important it is to have ownership of the way that your work and your production is seen that there's, this seems like there's a lot more riding on it somehow.
Naila Keleta-Mae: Yes. Yes. I do think about that in, um, in my book, in Performing Female Blackness, about what it means to think about being in a body that's read. As female and Black in Canada as a kind of performance to be able to think of this is who I am and this is who I perform to be as a means of really it's coming from a place of thinking through agency.
Yes, and moments of intervention like that's where the theorizing for me is coming from it is coming from a place of, of, of being pregnant with a child who I knew would be read as Black when they were out in the world and thinking about like, When will they realize that and what that means? And so it's, and how will I teach them to move through this space in a way that allows them to feel in control of who they are and what they are and what they can be and what they can imagine for themselves while simultaneously cognizant and clear about the ways that they are read.
And so I thought of performance and theorize performance as a way of doing that, of, of thinking about how to move through the world. And so, yes, so much is at stake, I think, for, I'll speak in particular about Black women who are writing and have histories of this, of like writing with wanting to imagine, to connect, to envision, to all of the things, um, and to be free.
As well to imagine places of freedom like I think of art as a place of in the potential for to be a place of radical reimaginings of our world of how we live with one each with one another like that is not just about, um, and that we can do that in ways that are economically viable and distribute the wealth of that in ways that are sustainable and encourage further growth and nurturing because there is enough room.
Right? Like there actually is enough room for all of us. And I think, Mariah, you reminded us of that when you talked about how, what a small percentage of the industry the Oscars actually represents. We are here, we are taking up room, and we actually need more room because the stories in so many instances are, they have opportunities to do great work in the world.
In, in many ways, the framing becomes so narrow that it can often just become a repetition of things that bring harm, a repetition of, of, of old ideas or ideas that we've tested and know that they lead to harm. And so we have creative people who can imagine other things and so we need more voices at the table, while also realizing that we haven't been waiting to get invited to the table, that we have been making the work.
All this time and still will continue to regardless while we insist on eating at the table, we will also simultaneously continue to nourish and face what we've been doing because we haven't been waiting outside the back door for scraps. Let's just be very clear.
Mariah Inger: You know, we as artists don't create because it's a fun thing to do.
We create because it is literally our being. It is how we communicate, it's how we move through the world, it's how we see the world. Our stories are raw, our stories are true, and they're honest and not, and that does not negate all the other wonderful art that has existed and taken the space for decades and decades. I'm not negating that.
Vinita Srivastava: It just feels like that there's a fight for equality that is, landing on the shoulders of Black women or racialized women. I mean, I'm not discounting that it is multi talented and, you know, you're part of the multiverse, but it just means that, um, you're caring a lot. And, um, so I'm just wondering while we're talking about this, like the beautiful talent of it all, as well as, you know, the burden of it as well, um, I'm just wondering what you think that others in the industry, we mentioned allies, but others in the industry can also do to move the needle forward.
Mariah Inger: If I don't become a voice in this discussion, who does? And so the burden becomes on us and a lot of us spoke about it publicly during the BLM movement of four years ago, where we were like, we're exhausted. Yes, like, it's not fair that we're the, we're the ones who are being traumatized and yet we have to teach you why we're being traumatized.
It's not fair. And it's the same burden within this industry that we're the ones having to say, pay me equally, respect me equally, choose, you know, see me equally. It's, it's crazy that we're in that position, but it is the only way that the needle's moving forward is by having these conversations. So it's an exhausting process.
Naila Keleta-Mae: I'd also say for me, this is where a bit of the shell game comes back into play, because a lot of research has actually been done. A lot of studies have been written. There's a lot of existing examples of best practices. People have done a lot of labor already. You know, so the, in many ways, the notion of like, Oh, what are we going to do?
And now we have to think about it for the first time as a, no, actually we don't. We could implement one of the many things that have been sitting here in this file folder for however long, right? Like we have the, and the, so the information and the best practice, at least models that we can implement quickly and get going, all that's already been done.
So we're actually, like it, it really has. You know, of course there are nuances and such to work out, but we're not talking about like broad strokes thematics or like that. I mean, that has already been laid out, tested. So that's not where we are. Actually, and so for me, the shell game is when it, when instead of, of just doing the things that we know are working and implementing them, we're in this, oh, let's, oh, oh, oh, we have to first respond.
And then we have to see, and maybe we need a task force and then we need five subcommittees and then, oh my goodness, five years have passed by. And then something else happens. Oh my goodness, we need a task force, you know, conversation, and then 10 years goes by. So that to me is like what I mean about the, when I'm talking about Amadou Diallo, when I'm talking about Rodney King, it's like, Oh, we need a, and a, and then, uh, and then 20 years go by.
And then I just think it's important to frame it in the context. We are also on lands that have deep investments and histories of, of notions of white supremacy. And we see that as well in the statistics and the, and the, uh, percentages and in the stories and the histories and the generational oral stories that are as valid as the studies and the reports. Right?
Mariah Inger: Yeah. One hundred percent.
Vinita Srivastava: So, lived experience. I actually wanted to talk to you about that, both of you, because, um, Naila, I know that you've spoken to a number of Black women in front and behind the scenes as part of your research. What are some of the stories that you've heard? Mariah, if we want to start with you and then go back to Naila.
Mariah Inger: I've met some incredible, incredible women. I've heard so many stories that have been quite heartbreaking, quite frankly, that, that have just been rooted in complete, um, entourage of ignorance and, um, and real pain. And I even put myself in that. I really. didn't understand how, how bottom of the barrel I was and how disrespected I was being on every set and, and, you know, every place of work.
Um, and it's surrounding myself by these women, you know, finding mentors, finding women who were, who were just kind of unapologetically them. that put them in huge risk in the eighties and nineties and, you know, really put them in risky places and probably put them at the bottom of, of the pay grade and, and access to, to huge opportunities.
But they were impactful and powerful. And the more I surrounded myself by these women, the more I realized that I had a voice too, and that, you know, that, that I was willing to kind of take that risk. I started to say, no, no, I'm not doing that role. No, you're not going to treat me that way. No, actually I'm not going to get, you know, the least amount of pay for the same thing that I know, you know, girl who I love and adore, but is white and is getting double, you know, double scale, triple scale.
I'm not, I'm not doing it. And I remember casting directors, really saying to me, be careful because you should be grateful to have these opportunities. The more I started saying no, the more I started saying, I'm going to take care of the girls behind me and make sure that they have a place. The more I walked into audition rooms with my baby in tow and said, here, I got an audition to do.
And I was alone as a single parent. The more I just demanded respect and to be heard, the more I got took a long time. It was a very exhausting process, but I did get it.
Vinita Srivastava: Naila, I just wanted to ask you about the, some of that work that you had done and some of the stories that you've heard and yourself, you know, as an artist, as a, as a playwright. I mean, if any of what Mariah said resonates for you, if there are some additional stories that you want to share.
Naila Keleta-Mae: Yes, um, much of my conversations have been informal, um, with the exception of three women, uh, Canadian artists who I interviewed for a chapter in a book called Analyzing Gender in Performance.
And so in that chapter, I had the opportunity to interview Djennie Laguerre, Jewelle Blackman and, Ordena Stephens-Thompson, they've been working in the Canadian theatre, film, television industry for decades. And I just ask them like, why, you know, questions like, why are you still doing, why are you doing this?
Like, why are you still doing this? Why are you doing this? And much of it is a transcript, really, because I wasn't interested in framing their voices and just wanted to take space to have them think through what they wanted to think through. Um, but Jewelle Blackman said, I don't want to do anything else.
And so that became, um, the title, a part of the chapter, because it's that sentiment. That was something that was marked through each of them, that, that notion that this is the thing that I'm called to do, that I'm here to do, that I make the most sense in the world when I'm doing it. And when I'm not doing it, I don't make sense.
You know, it doesn't, this doesn't make sense to me. It's who I am. And so I think, like, for when we see that women are persevering in these industries and that Black women, Indigenous women are, are, are pursuing these industries and are seeing them out decade after decade after decade in the face of this, we know that the, it's not for, for, You know, as much as it, like, it can't, you don't do it in a Canadian context, I think, for the vast majority of people in order to have great economic means.
We're not a country where, you know, I'm sure there is a percentage of people for whom that's possible. But it's not the par for the course. It's not the reality of many people. And so it's not that people who are doing this work aren't also aware of that. So to me, that just speaks to the kind of calling, really, um, and that's what I found in the conversations I've had that it's not that people can't do other things.
It's not that they're unable to earn incomes in other ways and have all kinds of creative ways of combining it. But it's a calling, and that story, I think, is a story that resonates through so many that I've spoken to.
Vinita Srivastava: That's beautiful. That reminds me of the, um, Da’Vine Joy Randolph and her acceptance speech, where, you know, she did, she did speak about that, and, you know, it was one of the most beautiful moments for me, if we're talking about the moments at the Oscars, the, of her win and her acceptance speech, where she talks about being, you know, The only Black girl in her acting class and you know, having somebody recognize her and always wanting to feel like fit in.
And then realizing now that, as you were saying, Mariah, it's, it's, it's what she brings to it. It's who she is, it's everything. She brings her whole self to it. And, um, that, that just, it's just a beautiful thing to remember that as you're saying, it's, you don't, we don't do this from choice. It's not a choice. So it's a calling,
Mariah Inger: Truly is a calling. And that was a beautiful moment.
Vinita Srivastava: I thank you both very much for being here today.
Mariah Inger: Yeah, thank you as well.
OUTRO
Vinita Srivastava: Thank you for listening to this episode of Don't Call Me Resilient. Please consider reaching out to us to let us know what you thought of this episode or if you have ideas for other stories you think we should cover.
You can reach the team at dcmr@theconversation.com. And if you haven't already, follow us on Instagram at @DontCallMeResilientPodcast. And please follow us on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss an episode next week. Don't Call Me Resilient is a production of The Conversation Canada. It was made possible by a grant for journalism innovation from the Social Science and Humanities Research Council of Canada.
The series is produced and hosted by me, Vinita Srivastava. The episode is produced by Dannielle Piper. Ateqah Khaki is our associate producer. Krish Dineshkumar does our sound design and mixing. Our consulting producer is Jennifer Moroz. Lisa Varano is the managing editor of The Conversation Canada, and Scott White is the CEO.
And if you're wondering who wrote and performed the music we use on the podcast, that's Zaki Ibrahim. The track is called Something in the Water.
.